Note: This interview appears in Portuguese followed by the English translation in italics.
Alice: Foram 20 anos naquela casa. Era uma casa grande, era estilo português, aquelas casas que tinham um jardim grande. Tanto que hoje, derrubaram a casa e, da minha casa, fizeram duas. We lived in that house for 20 years. It was a big house, it was very Portuguese-styled, these sort of houses with a big garden. So much that these days, they demolished the house and, in the place where my house was, they built another two.
Alaine: Derrubaram e construíram duas casas no mesmo lugar? They demolished it and built two other houses in the same place?
Alice: Sim, duas casas. E você olhando hoje, você ainda vê que a casa é grande. Yes, two houses. And when you look at it today, you can still see that the house is big.
Alaine: E tinha aqueles tijolos, azulejos? And did it have all those bricks, those glazed tiles?
Alice: Era, tinha um azulejo na frente. De azulejo, tinha um jardim na frente, uma entrada lateral, era daquelas casas de tipo portuguesa. Quero dizer, então, a minha vida foi nessa casa. Toda recordação que eu tenho de criança, de jovem, de adulta. It did, it had glazed tiles in the front yard. There was a front garden with glazed tiles, a side entrance, it was one of those Portuguese-styled houses. That’s where I grew up in and all, my whole life happened in there. All the memories that I have as a child, as a teenager, as an adult.
Alice: Meu pai tinha uma loja. Naquela época, a mercadoria era tecido, loja de tecidos, os tecidos vinham todos em caixas de madeira. E aí, ele levava as caixas de madeira prontas para minha casa. E lá, os empregados, os funcionários, quebravam as caixas, desmontavam toda e ficava às vezes dois, três meses aquelas ripas, aqueles. Aí, a gente brincava com aquilo, fazia casa de boneca. Uma casa e era a casa que a gente entrava mesmo, porque era madeira. Então, eu fazia casinha de boneca, eu construía e tudo. My father had a store. Back then, his merchandise used to be fabric, he owned a fabric store, and all the fabric came in boxes made of wood. And then, he used to bring the boxes of wood to my home. And there, his employees used to break the boxes, they disassembled everything and, sometimes, there would be maybe two or three of those wood slats. And then, we played with that stuff, we built dollhouses with that stuff. It was a home that we could even get inside because it was made out of wood. So, I built dollhouses, I built all of that.
Alice: Uma vez quando minha mãe saiu à noite, foi para o cinema, a vizinha do fundo estava casando e estava fazendo festa no fundo, no quintal dela. A única coisa que eu me lembro é que nós colocamos uma escada, subimos o muro e fomos pedir comida, bolo. [riso] E a noiva estava lá vendo, “Ei, ei, me dê!” Aí, ela deu ordem para os garçons ou alguma coisa, prepararam um prato cheio de salgadinhos, de doce e tudo. Aí, passaram pelo muro para a gente. Mas a gente deveria ter uns 13 ou 14 anos, mais ou menos. Eu, os outros são todos mais novos. Mas assim, não dava para fugir naquela casa, era muito grande, alta, não dava. Aí, nossa, ninguém nem se importou. Quanto mais a mãe ficava para fora, melhor, porque a gente comeu tudo de docinhos. Mas da casa, era isso aí. Tinha muita planta, a minha mãe criava bicho, pato, peru, galinha. One time, when my mother left at night, when she went to the movies, the neighbor from the house at the back was about to marry and she was throwing a party in her backyard. The only thing I remember is that we put up a ladder, we climbed up the wall and we went there to ask for some of their food, for some cake. [laughs] And the bride was just there watching us, “Hey, hey, give me some!” Then, she gave the butlers some kind of order, they prepared us a plate filled with some snacks, candy and all of that. Then, they gave it to us over the wall. But we were probably either 13 or 14 years old, somewhere in that range. Just me, because the others were all younger than me. But I mean, it was impossible to get out of that house, it was way too tall, it was just impossible. Then, after all that happened, nobody really minded. The longer my mother was away, the better, because we ate all of the snacks and all of the candy. But in that house, that was it. There were too many plants, my mother used to raise animals, ducks, turkeys, chickens.
Alaine: Tinha tudo isso, então? So, you had all of that?
Alice: É, tinha. E para hoje, era um quintal até relativamente grande. Yes, we did. And even today, it was a relatively big backyard.
Alaine: Tinha frutífera também? And did you have any fruit trees?
Alice: Tinha, mas eu acho que era uma goiabeira. E agora, as mangueiras, é tudo na rua, porque a minha cidade é cheia de mangueiras nas ruas. Então, eu acho que o único de frutas era pimenteira - porque a minha mãe me mandou cortar, porque eu comia a pimenta todo dia e ela achava que fazia mal - e goiabeira e, acho que abacateiro, nem lembro se é abacate. Mas, com certeza, a goiabeira tinha. Toda tarde não, mas por muito tempo, eu chegava do colégio, tipo, umas 05:00 ou 05:30, era quente, então eu pegava a borracha, o esguicho e ia molhar tudo o que era planta no jardim. Eu gostava, eu achava que a planta- Parecia que ela ria, sabe? Ficava diferente quando molhava. Então, eu fazia isso, eu sempre fazia. Muitas vezes, eu cheguei a fazer- O tempo todo, eu chegava do colégio ainda com o uniforme do colégio, eu ia molhar as plantas, porque eu gostava. We did, but I think it was just a guava tree. Now, the hoses all came from the street, because my city was filled with hoses in the streets. So, I think the only fruit trees we had were a pepper tree – since my mother told me to stop eating them, because I used to eat pepper every day and she thought it was bad for my health – and a guava tree and, I think we also had an avocado tree, but I don’t even remember if it was an avocado tree. But surely, we had a guava tree. Not every afternoon, but for a long time, I would come home from high school, somewhere between 05:00 and 05:30 PM, it would be hot, so I would take the rubber, the washer jet and I would water all the plants in the garden. I liked to do that, I thought the plants- It seemed like they were laughing, you know? They were different when they got wet. So, I used to do that all the time. Many times, I even did- All the time, I would come back from high school still wearing the high school uniform, I would go water the plants, because I liked to do that.
Alaine: E tinha aquela história do bicho-preguiça também, né? And there’s also that story about the sloth, right?
Alice: Ah, mas aí, o bicho-preguiça, foi na casa que a gente ia passar férias na praia. Foi no caminho que a gente pegou, o meu pai pegou a preguiça. E aí, nós levamos no carro, minha mãe ficou muito brava, meu pai me deu e eu a coitadinha. Eu devia ter deixado ela lá, porque depois, ela morreu. Tiraram de onde ela estava, ela estava atravessando a estrada. Eu devia ter pegado, que era o que a minha mãe queria que fizesse, e levasse e pusesse numa árvore lá perto, que era o certo. Mas eu criança? Oh, that one with the sloth, it happened in the house we were spending our beach vacation in. It happened while we were driving there, we took the sloth, my father actually took the sloth. And then, we took it inside the car, my mother got really angry, my father gave it to me and the poor thing. I should’ve left it where it was, because a while later, it died. We took it away from where it was, it was crossing the road. I should have taken it off the road, which was what my mother wanted me to do, and should have carried it to a tree nearby, which was the right thing to do. But me, as a child?
Alaine: É, não tem essa consciência com o bicho. Yeah, children don’t have that kind of care with animals.
Alice: E meu pai também era, “Não, eu levo!” Meu pai também era louco por bicho, meu levava jacaré para dentro de casa, três filhotes de jacaré, você acredita? Levou três filhotes de jacaré, pôs num tanque e ficou seis meses esses filhotes até eles ficarem, assim, desse tamanho e minha mãe- And my father was also like, “No, let me take it!” My father was also in love with animals, my father used to take alligators home, three alligator babies, can you believe that? He took three alligator babies home, he put it inside a tank and let these babies stay there for six months until they were this big and my mother-
Alaine: É muito curioso como criança. He’s really curious, just like a child.
Alice: É, ele não tinha muito juízo. [risos] Jacaré, carneiro, meu pai levava tudo. Macaco, macaquinho, porque como o meu pai tinha loja de tecido, ela passava uma vez, acho que uma semana ou um mês, ele encheu o carro, tipo uma perua, punha tecido e levava para o interior para vender para as lojas do interior, sabe? E ele ficava hospedado e tudo, então ele ganhava presente e o presente que o pessoal dava de lá era bicho. Era pato, peru, galinha, e dava tudo, inclusive macaco. Ele levou um macaco para casa, minha mãe, coitada, também deve ter sofrido bastante com o meu pai. Ele levou um macaco para casa, você acredita? Um filhote de macaco. Aí, um dia, “Mamãe, olha o macaquinho, está dormindo. Um dos menores dormindo numa rede depois do almoço e o macaco estava dormindo na rede junto. A mamãe pegou o telefone, “Vem pegar esse macaco e levar daqui agora, ele não vai dormir mais em casa!” Aí, lá veio o meu pai, pegou o macaquinho, o coitadinho, e levou. Deve ter morrido, o bichinho. Hoje, eu acho que já tem mais esse cuidado. Mas lá, tem muita gente que mata os bichos por qualquer coisa. Yeah, he wasn’t all that sane. [laughs] Alligators, sheep, my father used to take every kind of animal. Even monkeys, because my father used to own a fabric store, once in a while, I think once a week or a month, he would fill the car up with something, he would put fabric over it and would take it countryside to sell it to the countryside stores, you know? He would be housed there and everything, and the gifts that the people there used to give him were animals. Ducks, turkeys, chicken, every sort of animal, even monkeys. He took a monkey home, my mother, the poor woman, must’ve suffered a lot at the hands of my father. He took a monkey home, can you believe that? A baby monkey. So, one day, “Mommy, look at the monkey, he’s sleeping!” One of the youngsters was sleeping in a net after lunch and the monkey was there sleeping with her. Mom hurried to the phone, “Come here and take this monkey away right now, he’s not going to be sleeping inside the house anymore!” So, my father came, he picked up the monkey, the poor thing, and took it away. He must’ve died, the poor animal. These days, I think people have more care with animals. But back then, there used to be a lot of people who killed animals for any reason. Back then, they didn’t have this care with animals.
Alaine: Nossa. Mas o bicho-preguiça, ele ficou numa árvore na outra casa e ficou lá, mas morreu por ser fora do território dele? Wow. But about the sloth, it would stay in a tree in the other house and it would stay there, but it died because it was out of its territory?
Alice: É, eu acho que não tinha comida, então, ele ficou lá. O mês que nós passamos lá, ele ficou nas árvores lá, no quintal da casa onde a gente passava férias na praia. Ficou lá, mas... é. É isso. Yes, I think it had no food, so, it would just stay there. The month that we spent there, he would stay at the trees there, in the backyard of the house where we were spending our vacation on the beach. It would stay there, but… yeah. That was it.
Alaine: O que significado da casa para você? Um lugar de refúgio? Um lugar assustador? What is the meaning of the house to you? Is it a place of refuge? Is it a scary place?
Alice: Não, não tinha, não era assustadora, nem nada. Era de refúgio mesmo, era bem sossegado. No, it didn’t have any of that, it wasn’t scary or anything. It was really a place of refuge, it was very peaceful.
Alaine: Estava cheia de gente? Was it full of people?
Alice: É. Yes.
Alaine: A casa tinha uma personalidade? Tipo, você pensa na casa desse jeito da casa? Sentindo alguma personalidade, um caráter? Did the house have a personality? Like, do you think about the house in that sense? Feeling it had some kind of personality, a character?
Alice: Eu lembro muito do desenho da casa. Porque como era uma casa que não existe mais hoje, a gente não vê mais hoje. Então, quando eu lembro dela, eu lembro da casa, da entrada, da sala, tinha um corredor comprido. Aí, tinham uns quartos, eram três quartos, que os quartos eram ligados um no outro. E depois, tinha a despensa e, depois, tinha a cozinha e, depois, tinham os banheiros. Então, o banheiro era lá no fim do corredor. Então, era tipo aquela casa que- Eu não sei se você conhece esse tipo de casa, é comprida, sabe? Ela é comprida, era portuguesa mesmo. Então, as janelas, era aquela- Até hoje, às vezes, eu sonho com aquelas janelas. Era tanta janela que, no meu sonho, eu vou experimentando as janelas para ver se estão todas fechadas com medo de que estejam abertas, que possa entrar algum ladrão, alguma coisa. E às vezes, eu sonho com as janelas, com o monte de janelas. Aí, eu ia andando assim e quando chegava lá no fim, eu via que tinham janelas que não estavam fechadas, alguém esqueceu de fechar, porque era tanta janela. Sei lá quantas tinham, 10 ou 12, não lembro, porque eram muitas janelas, não tenho nem noção de quantas tinham. I remember a lot about the house’s design. Since it was a house that doesn’t exist anymore, we don’t see it anymore today. So, when I remember it, I remember the house, its entrance, its living room, there was a very long corridor. Then, there were the bedrooms, there were three bedrooms, the bedrooms were all connected to each other. And then, there was the pantry and there was the kitchen, and the bathrooms. So, the bathroom was located at the very end of the corridor. So, it was like these houses which- I don’t know if you know this sort of house, it’s very long, you know? It’s very long, very Portuguese-styled. So, the windows, they were- To this today, sometimes, I dream about those windows. There were so many windows that, in my dream, I kept checking the windows to see if they were all locked, afraid that they were open, afraid that a burglar would come inside or something like that. And sometimes, I dream about the windows, with all of those windows. And then, I would keep walking and when I’d reach the end, I would see that there would be windows that were not locked, somebody forgot to lock them, because there were way too many windows. I don’t know how many, either 10 or 12, I don’t remember, because there were way too many windows, I don’t even have an idea of how many there were.
Alaine: Quando você tem esse sonho, é como se você está preocupada com alguma coisa? Você está fechando as janelas no sonho? When you have this dream, does it feel like you’re worried about something? When you’re closing those windows in the dream?
Alice: É, sempre fechando, sabe? Agora, eu nunca liguei se eu estou preocupada com alguma coisa quando eu sonho com elas, eu nunca fiz essa relação. Mas que eu sonho? Eu sonho. Yes, I’m always closing them, you know? Now, I never noticed if I was worried about something when I dream about them, I never made that connection. But that I dream about them? I do.
Alaine: Muito interessante. Falou do quintal, falou dos bichos... outra coisa que eu ia te perguntar, que tem muita dessa cultura em Belém da empregada morar dentro de casa. That’s very interesting. You talked about the backyard, you talked about the animals . . . something else I was going to ask you about this culture in Belém where the servants live in the house together with their employers.
Alice: Ainda tem. It still exists.
Alaine: É, ainda tem. Então, tinha uma que morou com vocês? Right, it still exists. So, did you have a servant that used to live with you?
Alice: Tinha, acho que umas três empregadas. We did, I think we had about three servants.
Alaine: Três que moravam dentro da casa? Three servants living in your house?
Alice: Moravam na casa. Uma que limpava a casa, porque a casa era muito grande. Só de quartos, eram três quartos. Tinha o quarto da mamãe, junto com o quarto do meu irmão, outro. E tinha a sala, a sala de jantar, tinha um quintal. Então, tinha a que limpava a casa, a que cozinhava, a que era a cozinheira, e a lavadeira; porque naquela época, não tinha máquina de lavar, era tudo lavado na mão, esfrega. They did live in the house. One of them cleaned the house, because it was very big. Just the bedrooms, there were three bedrooms. There was my mother’s bedroom, along with my brother’s bedroom and another one. And there was the living room, the dining room, there was a backyard. So, there was a servant that cleaned the house, there was a servant who cooked, and there was a servant who did the laundry; because back then, washing machines didn’t exist yet, we had to do it manually with the washboard.
Alaine: Pois é, era muito trabalho. I know, it was hard labor.
Alice: Então, sete meninos, tinha que ter. Eram três empregadas e moravam lá, e moravam num porão, sabe? Um porão tinha uma parte que era de cimento com quarto, banheiro e elas dormiam lá. So, with seven boys in the house, we needed them. There were three servants who lived there and they lived in a basement, you know? There was a basement with an area made of cement that had a bedroom, a bathroom and they used to sleep there.
Alaine: E como foi a relação entre vocês crianças e elas? And how was the relationship between you, as children, and the servants?
Alice: Olha, era boa, era muito boa. Tem empregadas que foram empregadas da mamãe e, muitos anos depois quando elas saíam, elas voltavam lá. Teve muitas, muitas mesmo, e voltavam já casadas, trazendo filhos para a mamãe conhecer. Well, it was good, it was very good. Some of our servants were also mom’s servants and, several years later after they left, they came back. Many of them, and I do mean many of them, would come back married, bringing their children for mom to meet.
Alaine: Então, foi normal para vocês essa relação de ter gente em casa e não tinha- OK, é interessante para a gente que não tem essa cultura. Assim, tinha antigamente, até na época da minha mãe. Que a cidade de onde ela era, era bem menor na época e tinha muito dessa cultura do sul, uma cidade pequena. Então, até tinha um grau disso na infância dela, eles tinham uma empregada que, até hoje, é amiga da família. Mas mesmo assim, não chega nesse nível. Então, é interessante para a gente tentar entender como é essa relação da pessoa morar na casa, que é diferente para a gente. So, it was normal for you to have this relationship of having people around the house and it wasn’t- OK, it’s interesting for us, because we don’t have this kind of culture. I mean, we used to have, even back in my mom’s day. Because the city she was from, which was way smaller back then and had a lot of southern culture, it was a small city. So, this existed up to a certain degree in her childhood, they had a servant who, to this day, is friends with her family. But even then, it wasn’t the way it is with you. So, it’s interesting for us to try and understand this relationship of someone living in your house, which is a different concept for us.
Alaine: Você ficou triste quando ficou sabendo que foi demolida? Did you get sad when you got to know your house was demolished?
Alice: Não. Por exemplo, se eu fosse para Belém hoje e ela estivesse lá, eu gostaria de ir na casa para ver de novo, entendeu? Mas ela não existe mais. E quando eu soube, já fazia muito tempo que ela tinha sido- Já existia outra casa, não soube nem quando ela foi demolida. Eu já passei uma das ocasiões, “Ah, olha! Lembra, aqui era a nossa casa!” “Oi? Aonde?” “É essas três aqui!” Três ou quatro, sei lá, “Essas três casas aqui!” Então, eu já vi as casas construídas, já fazia tempo que elas tinham sido construídas. No. For example, if I visited Belém today and it was still there, I would like to visit the house to see it again, you know? But it doesn’t exist anymore. And when I did get to know about the demolishing, it had already been a long time since it was- There was already another house in its place, I didn’t even know when it was actually demolished. I’ve already went through one of these times when I said, “Oh, look! That’s our house, remember?” “What? Where?” “These three houses over there!” They were either three or four, I don’t know, “These three houses over there!” So, I have already seen the houses built up, it had been a long time since they were built up.
Alaine: E quando ela vendeu? Você se sentiu triste ou algo assim? How about when she sold it? Did you feel sad or something like that?
Alice: Não, eu não me senti, porque a minha mãe ia para uma casa melhor. Então, quero dizer, eu não fiquei triste, porque ela ia para uma casa melhor. Eu fiquei triste quando a minha mãe vendeu a casa, porque na verdade, ela não vendeu a casa, o estado tomou, porque era casa de patrimônio, entendeu? Então, ele indenizou a minha mãe por uma besteira e virou patrimônio público. No, I didn’t, because my mother would go to a better home. So, I mean, I didn’t feel sad, because she would go to a better home. I felt sad when my mother sold her home, because actually, she didn’t sell it, the state took it away from her, because it was considered public property, you know? So, they gave my mother some reparations for some stupid reason and it became public property.
Alaine: Ela não recebeu nada? She didn’t receive anything?
Alice: Não. No.
Alaine: Eles deram alguma coisa para ela, mas ela não tinha a chance de negociar? They gave her a small something, but she didn’t have a chance to negotiate?
Alice: Não. Entrou na justiça e, até hoje, está na justiça. A minha mãe já morreu. No. She opened a claim in the justice and, to this day, it’s still open. My mother has already passed away.
Alaine: Que louco isso. Foi patrimônio, e mesmo assim, foi derrubada? That’s so crazy. It was considered public property, but even then, they demolished it?
Alice: Não. A minha mãe saiu dessa casa, essa que eu fui criada não foi patrimônio. Essa para onde minha mãe foi, que era uma casa melhor e tudo, eu senti mais por causa disso, porque era uma casa- Até era velha, antiga, mas ela virou patrimônio público. Hoje, é alguma coisa do governo lá do Pará, entendeu? No. My mother had already left that home, that home where I was raised in was not considered public property. The one my mother moved away to, the one I said was a better home and everything, that’s the one I felt sad for, because that house was- Maybe it was old, but then it became public property. These days, it’s owned by the government of Pará, you know?
Alaine: Na minha cabeça, eu estava pensando que era essa casa onde você foi criada. From what I thought, you were talking about the house you were raised in.
Alice: Não. Onde eu fui criada, não foi nessa. No, it’s not the one I was raised in.
Alaine: Eu lembro o bairro que estava. I remember the district it was located in.
Alice: Que parece um bolo de noiva, um castelinho, alguma coisa assim, essa foi para onde a minha mãe foi. Eu já estava casada, eu já estava morando aqui em São Paulo, ela morou muitos anos, meu pai morreu lá nessa casa. Então, eu senti quando a minha mãe perdeu essa casa. Então, o governo fez a avaliação deles, que eles quiseram colocar, e aí ficou. The one that looks like a wedding cake, a castle or something like that, that’s the house my mother moved away to. I was already married, I was already living here in São Paulo, she lived there for several years, my father had passed away in that house. So, I felt really sad when my mother lost that house. So, the government made their evaluation, they wanted to consider it public property, and that was it.
Alaine: Imagino o quanto deve valer hoje. I can only imagine how much it would be worth these days.
Alice: É, mas não é muito que ele não pudesse. É porque é- Sabe, essas coisas. Roubar, eles roubam bastante. Yes, but it’s not really that the state can’t pay it. It’s because- You know how it works. When they want to steal, they do steal a lot.
Alaine: Com quantas pessoas eles devem ter feito isso? Porque tem muita casa histórica agora. How many people they must’ve done this to? Because there’s so many historical properties these days.
Alice: Muito. Hoje, eu não sei, acho que é alguma faculdade de belas artes, faculdade ou alguma coisa assim, que tem na casa. A lot. These days, I’m not sure, I think it’s a fine arts college or something like that, that’s what the house has now.
Alaine: Não passou por esse processo de despedida? You couldn’t go through the process of saying goodbye?
Alice: Não. I couldn’t.
Alaine: Ai, que triste. Oh, that’s so sad.
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